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View Full Version : Fiberglass Whip vs. SS Whip



Iceman
08-29-2010, 03:19 PM
is there any noticable difference between the two in terms of TRANSMIT only?

Take the standard 96" radio shack fiberglass whip vs. a radio shack 102" SS whip with a 6" spring. any TX differences?

Marcel
08-29-2010, 05:29 PM
metal is better imo. fiberglass may be quieter in some respects but I feel that steel is real

zodiac973
08-29-2010, 06:18 PM
SS whip

john doe
08-29-2010, 06:27 PM
i side with the steel whip ,but............the fiberglass whips bounce around alot less,cause less stress on the mount and the swr stays more stable because its not flapping around all over the place.

Iceman
08-29-2010, 06:52 PM
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Thanks fellas

HiDef
08-29-2010, 07:46 PM
Fiberglass itself is only a medium to carry a wire. The wire is buried inside the fiberglass and is what actually radiates. Sometimes the wire inside fiberglass antennas is very small gauge. It can be #20 on some models.

R.F. current is maximum at the feedpoint of an electrical 1/4 wavelength antenna like the 96" fiberglass whip. That current can be calculated when a few numbers are known. Let's say you have 200 watts and a 50 ohm system using P=I^2 R. Take the wattage number and divide it by the impedance. 200/50 = 4. Now take the square root of the answer. You get 2. That's the antenna current. That 2 amps flows only on the surface of the conductor. Think of a wire small enough to be buried in a whip. Does it have enough copper to carry 2 amps? If it does not what happens? Your precious hard earned R.F. turns into useless heat.

3 amps in a 50 ohm system is 450 watts.
4 amps = 800 watts.
5 amps = 1250 watts
6 amps = 1800 watts

A steel whip has no problem with 5 or 6 amps of R.F. Many fiberglass antennas will.

Basic antenna theory says everything done to an antenna will change receive and transmit equally. Here is an example where that idea falls apart. Skinny conductors will not make any difference on receive but will make a huge difference to transmit with meduim power. High power will cause a failure.

rifleman223
08-29-2010, 09:03 PM
I agree with ALL !!!!

I have run SS whips, and they are fantastic, EXCEPT that most do tend to whip around a bit at speed. (Some brands worse than others) I personaly never worried about the whipping on 11 meters, tooling around town.

I did have a SS whip that I cut to 10 meters and ran on the highway, shooting DX. I put two heavy fishing lines horizontaly on it in a V configuration to keep it straight, and had no problems.

On the other hand I have had several Francis 8' "Amazer" fiberglass whips that were great antennas, but I never ran more than 500 watts AM into them. And it I remember, I do not think that the solid copper wire in them was any heavier than 14 or 16 ga.

Marcel
08-29-2010, 10:30 PM
i side with the steel whip ,but............the fiberglass whips bounce around alot less,cause less stress on the mount and the swr stays more stable because its not flapping around all over the place.hey man....try this on a 102..........use heavy piece of nylon fishing line(its non-conducive) to secure antenna in a squared /right angle to your surface where it is mounted .I had one behind my sleeper and removed hook from tarp strap .......slid it through hole and hooked it to turbo wing bracket pulled it so it was 1" forwards and PRESTO....antenna stayed almost straight at 65-70mph. Works with cars and pickups as well. Hooked halfway up...secure other end to bed or over rear trunk lip and secure from inside. Really helps RX/TX.....and stabilizes SWR better

Iceman
08-29-2010, 10:48 PM
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My question was aimed not for everyday talking but the competitive arena. Say I was to key at a break...I was wondering if I'd do better using my r4, a 108" ss whip, or the fiberglass whip.

High Voltage
08-29-2010, 10:57 PM
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My question was aimed not for everyday talking but the competitive arena. Say I was to key at a break...I was wondering if I'd do better using my r4, a 108" ss whip, or the fiberglass whip.

if its a 7 footer francis its a triple 1/4 wave antenna .
there are 3 wires going inside . handles about 700 watt bird thats all. but kicks major ass .

555 -N- Da Horn
08-30-2010, 12:37 AM
take the fiberglass 102 or 96 incher and if you can pull the center wire out from the fiberglass
you would be amazed at what guage that wire is

rifleman223
08-30-2010, 12:58 AM
I used to trim my Francis antennas... That's now I remember the wire in them...

Some "Heliwhips" I owned had wire in them TWICE the gauge of the stuff in those long fiberglass whips...

HiDef
08-30-2010, 06:53 AM
No 7 foot antenna can be triple 1/4 wave on 11 meters. Pure bull.


if its a 7 footer francis its a triple 1/4 wave antenna .
there are 3 wires going inside . handles about 700 watt bird thats all. but kicks major ass .

Nickybots110
08-30-2010, 11:03 AM
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No 7 foot antenna can be triple 1/4 wave on 11 meters. Pure bull.


if its a 7 footer francis its a triple 1/4 wave antenna .
there are 3 wires going inside . handles about 700 watt bird thats all. but kicks major ass .

Well look who it came from!!!
That's like his audio improved because of the antenna he used. LoL

Froggy
08-30-2010, 01:01 PM
i personally like the 7 foot skipshooter

Marconi
08-30-2010, 02:22 PM
No 7 foot antenna can be triple 1/4 wave on 11 meters. Pure bull.

HiDef, High Voltage didn't say it was a 3/4 wavelength antenna, he said it had three 1/4 wave wires inside. Check out the patent for the Francis mobile antenna designs below.

The Francis Wheeler Dealer antennas were close to 95" inches, a little shy of 8' feet long not 7' feet. These antennas had multiple parallel wire radiators of different diameters, different lengths, thus different resonance. In this case the combination of the multiple wavelength wires and different wire diameters produced resonance in 11 meters with and increased feed point impedance near 50-52 ohms. The result were reported to show improved RF production with much improved bandwidth.

Here is the patent: http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=F7V0AAAAEBAJ&dq=patent:03541567

223, these antennas should not be cut, because one of the wires (longest) goes all the way to the tip and if you cut it, the antenna's resonance may be raised as expected, but the feed point impedance may also lowered---based on the theory of this patent idea.

rifleman223
08-30-2010, 03:15 PM
Hi Marconi !!!

No arguments.... But may not be the same patent...

The Francis "Amazer" was their model CB-50. (Only available in Grey color)

I have 2 of the "Amazer's" around here. One is a replacement tip on my "Big Stick" that is up in the air, and the other one I cut down at least 6" to tune to 10 meters. (It tuned OK at the time for SWR, on a large ball mount, but at that time I did not have a MFJ269....)

Here is an advertisement from the 70's, and some photos of my 'cut-down' one. (It has a piece of flat stock on the 3/8-24 thread right now)

And looking closely at the cut end, it looks like 3 or 4 small dia. strands of copper wire are showing. Whether they are one stranded conductor, or separate ones, I don't know.

Looking at the label, it says Pat. # 3,541,567 or 3,596,273.


48174818481948204821

Marconi
08-30-2010, 03:31 PM
223, the patent # I used is right off of my antenna which is a red Wheeler Dealer. I used your number and I find nothing. Check it again.

Let me know if you can read the text portion on the Patent?

I see what you mean in the ad, but a folded 1/2 wave dipole will have a very high impedance and that does not make sense. My antenna has the Patent on the hub like yours and it is also on the fiberglass part as well. I could not read the part on the base part.

High Voltage
08-30-2010, 08:00 PM
THANK YOU MARCONI . i no i always can count on your technical side . thanks for picking up what i tryed to explain , lol lol lol ol

always a pleasure . ps. im still having a erge to go commercial export class . :D;):o

HiDef
08-30-2010, 08:25 PM
Explain what? You said triple 1/4 wave like it does something a single 1/4 wave can't. Wrong again.


THANK YOU MARCONI . i no i always can count on your technical side . thanks for picking up what i tryed to explain , lol lol lol ol

always a pleasure . ps. im still having a erge to go commercial export class . :D;):o

High Voltage
08-30-2010, 08:33 PM
explain what? You said triple 1/4 wave like it does something a single 1/4 wave can't. Wrong again.

dont fight me on this on hi def . Lol lol it has more forward gain than a steel whip and has a lower angle of radiation, do the math hi def . Your older than me you should no this little rascal. Stick with your amp building duckplucker, lol lol oll ol

i got one even better , do u guys remember the quadrod /????//// even more deadly er !!!




PS. THE FRANCIS HAS 3 WIRES CLOSE TOGETHER THAT ARE IN THE ANTENNA , THAT WHY ITS CALLES A TRIPLE 1/4 WAVE . TX YOU hv

High Voltage
08-30-2010, 08:40 PM
wirelessly posted (droid: Mozilla/5.0 (linux; u; android 2.2; en-us; droid build/frg01b) applewebkit/533.1 (khtml, like gecko) version/4.0 mobile safari/533.1)

my question was aimed not for everyday talking but the competitive arena. Say i was to key at a break...i was wondering if i'd do better using my r4, a 108" ss whip, or the fiberglass whip.



well i tell you this iceman , i used a fighting stick in the one antenna class and got cut off by a guy saying tech 9 . He had his coil antenna on. Talk to heavy chevy about his 7 foot skipshooter in keydowns . Amazing . But only handles around 700 - 1000 bird.


Ps. Use the r4

HiDef
08-30-2010, 09:19 PM
Forward gain implies directivity. Which direction does the tripple nipple horsepucky gizmo radiate in? Do you use a rotor on yours?


dont fight me on this on hi def . Lol lol it has more forward gain than a steel whip and has a lower angle of radiation, do the math hi def . Your older than me you should no this little rascal. Stick with your amp building duckplucker, lol lol oll ol

i got one even better , do u guys remember the quadrod /????//// even more deadly er !!!




PS. THE FRANCIS HAS 3 WIRES CLOSE TOGETHER THAT ARE IN THE ANTENNA , THAT WHY ITS CALLES A TRIPLE 1/4 WAVE . TX YOU hv

rifleman223
08-30-2010, 09:46 PM
I use one of these on mine all the time....

4829

High Voltage
08-30-2010, 10:00 PM
Forward gain implies directivity. Which direction does the tripple nipple horsepucky gizmo radiate in? Do you use a rotor on yours?

post closed for you only . you dont understand , lol lol lol

HiDef
08-31-2010, 12:04 PM
Honestly HV you are crapping this site up with mis information.

Take your fingers out of your temples and crazy glue your fingers together.


post closed for you only . you dont understand , lol lol lol

rifleman223
08-31-2010, 05:11 PM
I need a few more of these....
They were soooo good that the other manufacturers put them out of business, and locked the designs away....

4837

DOC HOLIDAY TX
08-31-2010, 05:59 PM
I had 2 of those gray francis ant...had about an 3 inch bar that you could mount both of them and i made a 3 inch fiberglass separator that i mounted about 2/3 of the way up on antenaes to keep them evenly spaced...worked real well..wasn't aware they still made them

prometheus
08-31-2010, 06:30 PM
i'd rather be spanked with a stainless whip then fiberglass..fiberglass always leaves those little splinters.

High Voltage
08-31-2010, 07:59 PM
Honestly HV you are crapping this site up with mis information.

Take your fingers out of your temples and crazy glue your fingers together.




im telling ya guys try it for yourself and i bet ya the francis will cut off the steel whip , be carefull of the fiberglass to . dont get splinters . lol



an im not giving anybody misinformation . i do real world tests . just because you dont have experience with the duckplucken antenna's dont give me ya bullshit about your wrong . do some tests duckplucker !!!!!!
:p:ihih:

HiDef
08-31-2010, 08:58 PM
How much money do you want to put up?


im telling ya guys try it for yourself and i bet ya the francis will cut off the steel whip , be carefull of the fiberglass to . dont get splinters . lol



an im not giving anybody misinformation . i do real world tests . just because you dont have experience with the duckplucken antenna's dont give me ya bullshit about your wrong . do some tests duckplucker !!!!!!
:p:ihih:

rifleman223
08-31-2010, 09:20 PM
Both of my "Amazer" antennas were purchased in the 1970's, (I bought 4 or 5 of them back then) and they all said CB-50 on the red label, so they must be originals, before Barjon bought them.

The Francis "Amazer" antennas have not been manufactured for at least twenty years, but you can occasionally still find some unused ones.

Over the years I have heard people say that they were 1/2, 5/8, and 3/4 wave length... Whatever they actually were, they always worked great for me. At LEAST as good as a SS whip. But as I said, I never tried to run more than 500 watts AM into a Francis. And I never crushed one to find out EXACTLY how the wires were set up.

I ran some tests years ago with a field strength meter on the end of about 30' of string, using the same ball mount, car position, etc. One thing I found was that the Francis gave about the same field strength as a SS whip at that point, and better field strenth than an Avanti "Gator-Whip", and a 6' Mark top-loaded "Heliwhip".

(I also found that with 350 watts dead-key AM, measured AT the antenna, all of those antennas had good SWR. But when I would modulate the AM carrier, the SWR swung up on the Avanti and on the Mark. But no change on the Francis or the SS whip... Very Strange... Maybe the coils...)

BOB85
09-02-2010, 06:20 AM
the francis patent claims that the 3 wires are dimentioned and spaced in such a way as to provide more than one closely spaced resonant frequency and a raised input impedance giving a wider bandwidth and better match @ resonance to 50ohm coax than a single conductor antenna,
they make the same claims for their multiwire helical wound antennas but make no claims that it gives higher gain.

you need a tiff viewer to read us patents;)

http://patimg2.uspto.gov/.piw?Docid=03541567&homeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fpatft.uspto.gov%2Fnetacgi%2Fn ph-Parser%3FSect1%3DPTO2%2526Sect2%3DHITOFF%2526p%3D1 %2526u%3D%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25252Fsearch-bool.html%2526r%3D4%2526f%3DG%2526l%3D50%2526co1%3 DAND%2526d%3DPALL%2526s1%3D%252522%252509%252BFran cis%25253B%252BRichard%252BJ%252522.INNM.%2526OS%3 DIN%2F%252522%2526RS%3D&PageNum=&Rtype=&SectionNum=&idkey=NONE&Input=View+first+page

Marconi
09-02-2010, 12:20 PM
the francis patent claims that the 3 wires are dimensioned and spaced in such a way as to provide more than one closely spaced resonant frequency and a raised input impedance giving a wider bandwidth and better match @ resonance to 50ohm coax than a single conductor antenna,
they make the same claims for their multiwire helical wound antennas but make no claims that it gives higher gain.

you need a tiff viewer to read us patents;)

http://patimg2.uspto.gov/.piw?Docid=03541567&homeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fpatft.uspto.gov%2Fnetacgi%2Fn ph-Parser%3FSect1%3DPTO2%2526Sect2%3DHITOFF%2526p%3D1 %2526u%3D%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25252Fsearch-bool.html%2526r%3D4%2526f%3DG%2526l%3D50%2526co1%3 DAND%2526d%3DPALL%2526s1%3D%252522%252509%252BFran cis%25253B%252BRichard%252BJ%252522.INNM.%2526OS%3 DIN%2F%252522%2526RS%3D&PageNum=&Rtype=&SectionNum=&idkey=NONE&Input=View+first+page

Yes Bob, you do need a "tiff viewer" to view the US Patent Office results. I think there are download instructions on their site however.

This is why I posted the Francis Patent using the Google Patent site earlier.

I can't remember anything specific while using my Francis many years ago, but I think it was all good. I remember trying it in the top of my Marconi 6x last summer, and all I recall was that I was not impressed for some reason. Back in the day I cut some off of the top of my Wheeler Dealer to go lower into the free band and maybe I messed up the advantage for the design idea. I'm sure I didn't know the thing might have multiple wires of different lengths and diameters inside. Have you ever used one?

I didn't know the Francis also made helical wound antennas, or maybe they used that idea to make the shorter antennas they produced????

In reading this patent, I kept noting the author use the term "more responsive," and that has to mean something.

BOB85
09-02-2010, 04:12 PM
never tried the amazer or wheelerdealer eddie and don't remember them ever been available here, i heared about them on wwrf and read up about the claims, i would love to try one but even the barjan version that freecell says fall apart are rare as rockinghorse shit nowadays,

we did get the avanti and shakespear single wire 1/4waves which i do have,
the francis patents they multiwire helical loaded antennas but again never seen one with my own eyes:)

mrsuburban
09-02-2010, 06:18 PM
I have a Black color Francis wheeler dealer from after barjan bought them. I got the antenna maybe around 1999 or 2000. It also has 3 small copper wires in it.

I haven't used it in years, and i has been trimmed down some.

mrsuburban
09-02-2010, 06:23 PM
well i tell you this iceman , i used a fighting stick in the one antenna class and got cut off by a guy saying tech 9 . He had his coil antenna on. Talk to heavy chevy about his 7 foot skipshooter in keydowns . Amazing . But only handles around 700 - 1000 bird.
Ps. Use the r4

You are incorrect about how much power a 7 foot Skipshooter will handle.

I've see one with my own eyes handle over 10,000 bird RMS on an AC Suburban.

High Voltage
09-02-2010, 07:56 PM
How much money do you want to put up?

my life Hi Def

High Voltage
09-02-2010, 07:58 PM
You are incorrect about how much power a 7 foot Skipshooter will handle.

I've see one with my own eyes handle over 10,000 bird RMS on an AC Suburban.

lol lol lol lol lol lo llollool yes for 5 seconds !1111 DONT DO THAT BOY. LOL

HiDef
09-02-2010, 08:04 PM
Please spare me the B.S.

How much money to you want to put up?


my life Hi Def

High Voltage
09-02-2010, 08:06 PM
please spare me the b.s.

How much money to you want to put up?

hi def did i stutter, i said i bet my life . No money here. My word is good . And my soul is pure.
I tryed that test before and the steel whip blows , the take off angle is way to high . Its great for talking in valleys less than 10 miles.

HiDef
09-02-2010, 08:34 PM
OK so you don't believe your own statements enough to back it up. No problem.


hi def did i stutter, i said i bet my life . No money here. My word is good . And my soul is pure.
I tryed that test before and the steel whip blows , the take off angle is way to high . Its great for talking in valleys less than 10 miles.

High Voltage
09-02-2010, 09:45 PM
i dont own a francis anymore , and have not did that test for years, i trust my data tho . :D

HiDef
09-03-2010, 05:20 AM
Of course. You made it up yourself.


i dont own a francis anymore , and have not did that test for years, i trust my data tho . :D

mrsuburban
09-03-2010, 02:15 PM
lol lol lol lol lol lo llollool yes for 5 seconds !1111 DONT DO THAT BOY. LOL

Nope. He rides down the Jersey Turnpike from NY talking on them the entire time with the AC box on.

Froggy
09-03-2010, 03:30 PM
jesse....diggin a hole once again.....nawww can't be

prometheus
09-03-2010, 03:56 PM
jesse....diggin a hole once again.....nawww can't be

sometimes i wonder.."can it be?"..nah..but maybe..

High Voltage
09-03-2010, 11:22 PM
Nope. He rides down the Jersey Turnpike from NY talking on them the entire time with the AC box on.

what gauge wire ????????? omg no

PONY EXPRESS
12-01-2010, 12:50 AM
The 102 inch all metal whip being larger in outside diameter should give a better swr curve . Basically more power to antenna at band edges.
The fiberglass uses small diameter wire inside . Hope this helps someone understand the 102 inch metal antenna is better

Same theory as a Cage Dipole http://www.smeter.net/antennas/wire-cage-dipole.php